#009 - The Seven Deadly Leadership Sins: Envy

Robert Greiner 0:06

eks that basically says, Hey,: 2021

Tiffany Lenz 0:23

Yes. That's crazy. Okay, cool. I actually thought of a different one too have a tab open here around. We've talked about this in some different ways, but never really nailed down how we would talk about it in an episode but like Situational Leadership, the the concepts of delegating and supporting and coaching and directing and when that what are good, and what are good and bad practices there and when that can backfire how it's done well.

Robert Greiner 0:52

yeah, I would love to talk about that, that there was a big point in my career where I was just very much fire and forget delegator. And it was it's even worse than that. Because the second that I delegated it, in my mind, it was done. And so two weeks later, when I find out something's not done, it was a little bit of a shock. And so that that Situational Leadership framework actually helped frame up where to think about where people are at a point in time and how to engage with getting them more work to do. So give me a sort of more nuanced in my approach. So yeah, definitely, definitely want to talk about that.

Tiffany Lenz 1:25

Cool. Cool.

Robert Greiner 1:26

But what are we talking about today?

Tiffany Lenz 1:27

Well, today, we are, we're about to land this plane here shortly. So we're on deadly sin number six, envy,

Robert Greiner 1:34

six of seven envy.

Tiffany Lenz 1:36

Yep. Envy is it's a tough one, too. And it's often one I find that gets a little bit like, misconstrued, because it always starts out in a really good place. And it's it often it sounds to me, it sounds like we've been working on solutions for them all year. And, and when one looks at it closely, what starts, what's the slide that happens with envy is when we start measuring our results against our own efforts, versus against a true north customer satisfaction, customer experience, a anything that would differentiate us from our competitors, as opposed to measuring against our own efforts, or even against our competition,

Robert Greiner 2:20

that is a pretty common, what do you call it like a defense tactic? When you're getting negative feedback, or there's a negative outcome and you go right to the team worked really hard, I'm working really hard at this, what am I supposed to do? That kind of thing is, so it's at an organizational level,

Tiffany Lenz 2:35

yes, could be at a team level or an organizational level, because it is a defense mechanism, you might hear it more in your team, where there has been hard work done. And we've just lost sight of what we were aiming at, or even how to what's truly important, or how to move around roadblocks. And we've just fixated on just measuring effort, not not at all to be confused with agile methods that measure effort. effort is an important thing to measure. But it has to be viewed through an inappropriate lens, such as output. In this case, thinking about what exactly was success? it actually wasn't effort.

Robert Greiner 3:18

And so is that a way to so if you're not meeting your objectives, that there could be an effort or capacity kind of undercurrent that causes that problem? Sorry, are you saying that we're assuming in this envy discussion, that's not the problem. It's really the desire to measure yourself against your efforts. So you don't have to make the hard associations decisions, organizational changes to actually move in the direction that's needed?

Tiffany Lenz 3:49

Yeah, the assumption is, that is an important point, the assumption is not that people aren't working hard. The assumption is, they are working hard. But if missing a mark a deliverable or a goal, a date is it becomes a reality. Rather than trying to solve the problem, we often deflect and look at something else and you hit the nail on the head with defense mechanism, it would be so much more powerful if we constantly looked at the business differentiator, customer experience customer satisfaction or another even another way of thinking about this one, Robert is when we judge ourselves by our competition, our goal is to keep up with them and of keeping up with the Joneses style or say you're a product company that's mirroring yourself after another product company, it's so easy to get lost in the weeds there of just keeping up with whatever is being released. As opposed to fully differentiating yourself and meeting a new need.Don't worry about whether or not they whoever they are meeting a need. Choose the experience. You want your customer to have choose the need, you're going to meet and go meet it and stay singularly focused on that

Robert Greiner 5:02

Miss direction, miss categorization of success which is measured in effort, and then it sounds like there that also stems from a lack of taking ownership and responsibility for negative outcomes and what we might do to mitigate them in the future. And during that hard work, are those is that all that envy encompasses? Or is there like another layer that I'm not seeing yet?

Tiffany Lenz 5:28

No, I think you're I think you're spot on envy and CUSP. And it's two different perspectives, you could be coming at something from almost an emotional response of, I might, my team and I worked hard look at all that we did. And that could be at a team level or even at a higher level organization in front of a board, a set of stakeholders, one set of clients, whatever, that's an emotional response. A secondary response is almost that of a competitive nature. But missing the mark, like, Who are you competing against? Are you competing against a competitor? Are you actually competing for a client's attention by coming up with the best way to meet their needs? The newest best thing? So one is emotional, and one is competitive. And the outcomes on both if they're not directed appropriately, are negative because they miss a mark.

Robert Greiner 6:28

Okay, so when I think about envy, like if I'm jealous, because you got a new watch, and I really liked that watch, and I wish I had that watch. I'm so it's not just about in this case, the watch the analogy here is that I wish my circumstances were within the snap of a finger immediately different, irrespective of what the consequences are, or any of that is so in an organization then that the where envy comes into play is you wishing the world work differently, and then trying to craft metrics and measures to prove that bias is so. Is that right? Or maybe I'm trying to I'm still trying in my head to figure out what you know, envy means I know, these are tongue in cheek, but it's nice to have that this is what greed looks like at a personal level, like how does how did those things tie together?

Tiffany Lenz 7:21

So the watch analogy is an interesting one. Because that would be, let's play that one out, you see that I have a watch. You want a watch like mine, you could emotionally become consumed with not being able to change the way the world works, or the fact that like you can't afford the new Rolex that I have, or whatever, that that makes me chuckle a little bit because neither one of us are really like into stuff like, but we could, but we'll just follow that thread. So you could become obsessed in that way. Or you could refocus yourself on two different things. One, I'm going to make a plan, and I'm going to reach a goal of I, Robert wants a Rolex, and I'm going to do what it's going to take, I'm going to budget, I'm going to get a second job, I'm going to blow up whatever, I'm going to stay focused on my goal, not on the way I feel about that person or my circumstances, or the fact that I'm less than or whatever. A second way of looking at it would be to say, instead of again, focusing on she has a watch, and I want the watch, it would be rethinking about it much more analytically, why do I want a watch is a watch actually what I want, is it or maybe it's actually an apple watch that I need, maybe that would serve my needs best and give me the most joy. Maybe it's a new phone, that also tells time, obviously, but it's the latest and greatest and the most expensive phone is what I'm saying it's like thinking about the actual need. So it's either an emotional response, or it's more of a logical response. And both have to stay focused in the right place. So what you really need is an Apple Watch and a new phone. You don't need a Rolex. You don't wear watches you get you like breakout from the metal you have sensitive skin, like there's 100 different things that could happen inside of envy to make it be that like striving to be either emotional have an emotional pity party, or striving to be just like somebody else. Neither one of those things are good.

Robert Greiner 9:23

Okay, so the emotional pity party is the reorganizing metrics to suit effort in something that you are or something that you already are good at so you can feel good about yourself. And then the you have a Rolex, I'm mad that I'm comparing myself to you and and I don't have one is the is the intense focus on competitors, both of which blinds you from reality and potentially keep you focused heading on a path that's the complete wrong direction that could ultimately ruin relationships with customers. Have you released poor products, whatever because your focus on the wrong things.

Tiffany Lenz: 10:02

Think about the number of companies, we could just be consulting without even throwing out any names because it's not it's this is about everybody getting better not about going after someone else. But think about the companies who start. And they serve, they provide the exact same service as another company. And over time, the only competitive advantage becomes a rate race to the bottom, who can provide the same thing cheaper, just cheaper, just a little bit cheaper, that will, there's no where for that to go at some point, versus constantly differentiating yourself in the market as a business. I know we we don't have a lot of them off the top of our heads. But I think we could do if we wanted to do some research on what happens over a 20, 30, 40 year span with companies that start out, say, Apple and Microsoft making very similar things. But what if there's a third or fourth that doesn't differentiate themselves enough. And what they do is they start becoming like, more Microsoft released a new thing. So therefore, we need to Microsoft just came out with so it's a me too- ism, versus a differentiation. And meet me too-ism inevitably leaves multiple parties behind, as opposed to thinking a few steps ahead of what would provide your customer with something unique, something very satisfying, some sort of different experience, and keep focused there. It's an obsession for the customer. That keeps you focused there, you have to be aware of your competitors. But when they become the focus, then somebody is going to lose very quickly. And it's probably you.

Robert Greiner: 11:44

Yeah, just anything, it's a dichotomy, right, there's, you can't just completely ignore the market and what your customers are doing. But there's a healthy balance there. What we're talking about when it becomes envy, though, is when you are over focused on what your competitors are doing at the detriment of what your values are, what you're trying to do, who your customers are, where you're trying to go. And you just get consumed with what they're doing in it and then reacting all the time and not doing anything original. Have we talked about Jocko Willink at all, I can't remember. Now he's one of my favorite authors. So he's ex Navy SEAL commander wrote a book called Extreme Ownership. And he says, on any team, in any organization, all responsibility for success and failure rests with the leader, the leader must own everything in his or her world, there is no one else to blame. The leader must acknowledge mistakes, admit failures, take ownership of them, and develop a plan to win. And I think that part where you took, in your personal example, something that maybe even started as an unhealthy emotion, which is like, Oh, I wish I had this watch, in your suggestion very quickly turned it into, okay, what am I going to do about I'm either going to explore why I don't need this to begin with, and really dig into that. But if I realized that this is something that I want to buy, and there's no judgment there, if you want to Rolex, go for it. Here's the plan I need to put in place to make it happen. And if you're willing to do those things, and then it was important to you. So I think that the ownership thing we talked about earlier, but then this sort of plan to dig yourself out of the hole or to go get what's important to you, I think is a really important part of what we're talking about here.

Tiffany Lenz: 13:29

Yeah, that's a great point, we actually have talked about him. And as soon as you started talking about his theories that jogged my memory, I think we discussed him and personal responsibility. Maybe it may be in RAF a week or so ago, because of the this concept of the buck stops with me with every leader. But if I'm either a leader or I'm an aspiring leader, or I'm a leader, and I don't know it yet, I don't know that people look up to me or watching me. So it's a level a different level of personal responsibility and accountability. You're right, my first example was all about if I really want something, then I will take responsibility for that and just make a plan.

Robert Greiner: 14:10

And that's the key because that's the limits of our control, right is like, we can control what our competitors do what our customers want. All we can do is take ownership of and I do the term ownership instead of fault or blame. It's just acknowledging the reality that you're in saying, Hey, this is this is what's happening. Let me put a plan in place to move forward. I think that's a really healthy thing to do. And that applies really to almost any situation where you have a negative outcome and then you might find yourself wanting to justify by how hard you worked or compared to so I'm not as bad as RadioShack who went out of business or whoever.

Tiffany Lenz: 14:48

Yeah, that's that's another interesting spin you just put on as I'm not as bad as so as to make oneself feel better. But what does that accomplish? Did that get you any closer to your goal? Did that make your product any better didn't make your team any stronger, because you're not as bad as someone else, though. So going back to the first phrase was, we're measuring results against our efforts, we're measuring our results against something that is not the outcome, we need the outcome, that should be our highest priority. I'm stating customer satisfaction or experience.

Robert Greiner: 15:25

Let me state that. Let me say that again, because I think that was really important. We're measuring results that are say that, again.

Tiffany Lenz: 15:31

We're measuring results against something other than the outcome, we need,

Robert Greiner: 15:38

Measuring results against something other than the outcome we need. Yeah, that's a really good indicator. And something that with some clear head and some analysis for really any organization, you could go and pinpoint. So that gives you a place to go and look really

Tiffany Lenz: 15:54

100%. One thing I've done with keeping my teams focused on customer experiences, so that they see them differently, is I did develop my own little customer experience satisfaction survey. And it's intentionally very open ended, it does have what I call a pain to value ratio, and starts with a starts and basically ends with a conversation that will lead to some actions. But I developed six questions that helped me have a conversation with the person who is my truenorth, whether that is my internal customer, or external customer, and each one of those questions is about the relationship that leads to better outcomes. It's something that really keeps you focused away from, in this example, my efforts and on to what is needed. So I'll give you an example with question number one. If I'm asking a client, how am I making them successful? Am I making you successful on a scale of one to 10? Let's talk about that. How painful is the is the experience of me making you successful? And how much value are you getting from this interaction. And anything that is not close to the desired score, which for pain would obviously be a low number, and value would be a high number is a place to start a conversation that says Tell me more? How could I make this number? How can I make that pain lower for you? How can I make the value higher for you? And there's not a single place there to make excuses to be to respond emotionally to redirect about how hard we've worked? or this or that? It's the question is, am I making you successful or not? So that's just one of six questions I have that lead to this depth of conversation around staying focused on my customer as my current obsession, I find that really helps with confronting and diffusing envy.

Robert Greiner: 17:55

There's this idea of complexity theory. And when you're building software, that it's like the complexities that exist somewhere. Too many times, we put that on the end user to solve right. So let me just duplicate this over here. Or this thing can load slowly or this can be a little convoluted, because just solve it our on our end would be much more difficult than too much of a hassle. I like the idea of thinking through it's Yeah, you may be adding value to a customer. But what is the cost that they're paying? Is it worth it? Is there anything you can do to decrease that pain, which in the equation would increase their total satisfaction? And so I think not we don't look at that a lot. Rarely, we just look at the value that we're providing in a bulleted list somewhere.

Tiffany Lenz: 18:43

Yep. Yep. Like, I like the expression. And I think I mentioned that before, sometime. It's a couple different times throughout, because there are some of these topics that that weave in and out of one another. But this idea of being obsessed with my customer is one that I've heard talked about. I've heard serial change agents, wildly successful executives, talk about this singular focus of customer obsession. This isn't creating a good experiences, being obsessed with something as a level beyond. And I don't think it's a bad thing. It's not a weird kind of obsession, actually, to strive to be so enthralled by wanting success for your customer, that you do move hell and high water and you do stay constantly focused on it. And you keep rallying people in that direction, and cancel out a lot of the noise. Another thing that gets pushed to the wayside here in a good way is this expression feature parody. It's when I'm constantly trying to build something in my app, build something on my platform, build something in my product, that is a feature that it has parody with my competitors, you just all of that becomes noise and distraction. When you're singularly focused on your customer. You might still build those features, but you're building them for the right reason, not the wrong reason.

Robert Greiner: 19:57

But if you do see a signal out in the market or What your customers are doing or your competitors are doing? You still have to go through that intentional step of, Hey, is this the right thing to build? Now that we're aware of it for our users? Would this delight our customers? Does this reduce the cost it? Or the the hassle factor the pain of working with us? At a minimum to decide whether or not Hey, this is something we should prioritize? Yeah. 100%

Tiffany Lenz: 20:24

another one of my questions is around customer satisfaction is do you view me or us our firm as a strategic partner? That could be a hard one to hear if the answer is no, but you need to hear it. And there's no room again for something like But haven't you looked at how hard we've worked? The question was about them the question was, you needed a strategic partner do Am I filling that need or not? And can we talk about how I could make that process easier, that would be reducing the pain quotient, and then how I could make it more valuable to you that'd be increasing the value quotient. So all a conversation that allows us to break down different pieces and come up with ideas for deepening something that provides customer success, satisfaction and a deeper experience? All because we're obsessed with that over any type of excuse making any type of emotional responses or any type of metoo ism.

Robert Greiner: 21:21

Okay, that makes sense. And so those are, are those the only two questions on your customer satisfaction survey? What are the questions you have?

Tiffany Lenz: 21:29

There's a third here, do you believe you have access to the best talent to meet your needs? So this would be from any sort of vendor partner, right? Are we good? Are we able to provide our customer with the kind of talent they need for their specific problem? Doesn't matter if, if any particular firm partner vendor, whatever you want to call it? If they hire really smart people? If they're not the right people for that person's need? Why should it matter to them? If the advertisement is but look, you're paying for the world's smartest people? Well, they're not the world's smartest people that deal with my problem. So that's a part of a conversation right there that can start down a path of Okay, tell me more? How are we missing the mark? How can we adjust that you might come to the conclusion that you're not the best partner for something or you need to need to subcontractors, there's 100, different outcomes there. It's not none of that is meant for discouragement or parting of ways. But it is a it's a conversation piece that's all about the customer's experience and their satisfaction. here's here's one, number four, that always catches people off guard, when I say it, it is, are we helping your boss look good. So often in a vendor or consultant or contractor relationship, we are there's a price tag attached, and a customer bringing us in, they do have people they are accountable to for the way they spent money on whoever they spend it on. People process tools, whatever. And even being conscious of the fact that one person we interface with has a whole other network of people they have to interface with that thinking right there will lead us to a place of Tell me more about how I can make your boss look good to their stakeholders. Number five would be Do you feel like we're invested in you and our firm? We're very good at this. And we have an entire culture around giving gifts, right? But for those who are coming from a different culture, it is important for us to think about, we often think we're doing very good and nice things for a customer. But again, is it about us so that we can create a whole list of the nice things we did? And I am being a bit tongue in cheek with that there's no harm in creating a list of the things that you did for your customer. But if do they feel that it was the right kind of investment for them? How do you open that conversation? And then the last one is just an overall give me a pain to value ratio. Like I never want a customer to come back to me and say, you and your team were amazing. But gosh, you guys were so hard to work with, like very high maintenance and very specific to the point of not fitting into my culture. And just you know, the drill, Robert, like there's a dozen different ways that we can make ourselves difficult as in human to human interaction versus staying focused on the people we're there to serve. And so I like this set of questions, and I've modified them quite a bit over time as I find that the words resonate differently and honing them in. But the singular focus is all about the customer. It's an obsession with how they experience me or how they experience my firm. And then it leads to some good discussion.

Robert Greiner: 24:49

We have a term in the business called fee fatigue, where we blame a lot of what you're talking about on our clients. It's like I just get tired of paying you for a while and that It could be that when our case you, we may design a project that has an 18 month life to it. And when the project is over, the organization needs time to catch up and wait till the next thing. Maybe they don't need you for the maintenance mode. And so trying to artificially stick around could create that lack of wanting to pay for you. But most of the time, I think those questions that you're asking, those become more and more out of whack. And then there's a comparison between the people we were when we showed up day one, you know, we're really hungry to win business and the people that maybe we are today, three years later that are taking the relationship for granted. For instance,

Tiffany Lenz: 25:38

yeah, 100%. Yeah, V ism, that's a really that that is such a thread to pull on. They're so good, immediate comment that comes to mind, I don't ever mind talking about money with a customer. It is, it is how the world goes round. We both we all need it, both parties need it, we all have limitations. And these are just facts. So treating that conversation, like it is taboo or an elephant in the room or something, it's just never a good plan, hit that one face, just head on. But when if you look at it and talk about it from the angle of some of these questions, it will help understand how to not get there by surprise or not use it as an excuse. So let's think about theism from the perspective of if I'm talking about Gosh, am I making you successful? Can we talk about that? Do you have access to the best people? Am I actually a strategic partner to you when that's what you needed? And it's amazing the answers you get back of where here we are thinking we're making them successful, like value for dollar. And they're turning around saying, Yeah, but it wasn't that good. And let me tell you why. Oh, great. Now I can now I actually have something I can work on before I get exited at the end of an SOW. What about having what about making being a good strategic partner if that's what the customer needed, but what we brought to the table was much more just a just singularly execution and I am not diminishing execution at all. Because it is a well honed craft, and it is still a rarity, sadly, but if that isn't what all what they needed, and we're focused only on one thing for them, are they really getting the value for the dollar, open the conversation as early as possible and keep having it over and over again. So that just this like fee is in fee fatigue doesn't doesn't become the excuse.

Robert Greiner: 27:33

You've touched a nerve there, because let's put ourselves in a fictitious situation if you picture a loved one, and they have to go in for surgery, and so you take them in for surgery. And maybe it's like a 10 hour thing. And you are just hanging out waiting in the waiting room for 10 hours. And then 12 hours goes by, and then 15 hours. And then finally you get so fed up that you like burst into that little restricted area and the surgeon like going out to their car and you chase them down. You're like Hey, what's going on? They're like, Oh, yeah, everything was fine. Surgery went well. You can take your loved one home tomorrow. Oh, okay. You'd be really frustrated, you'd be furious. And the execution was perfect. And so it's really what you want. And we all gravitate towards, hey, let me sit down with you. Here's what I advise you do? I've seen 100 of these before, this is typically what you could expect. I'm going to I'm going to send someone out every hour to give you an update on what's going on. Even if that data is, hey, things are still where they were no better, no worse, you're gonna feel a lot better. And I think one really nice thing that your questionnaire does is if you start thinking about perceived value, and Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you touched safety needs belongingness and esteem in your questions. And the really important thing about that is our clients, our customers may be feeling this low grade, physiological, emotional feeling about us, especially if there's a problem that they have not yet named. And so forcing the discussion mind say, Oh, you know what, now that you mentioned it, your people are hard to work with. I know it's on the sprint too. But I just noticed that high drama, and anytime asked him to do something, there's a bit of an eye roll is that normal, you can address it right away. And you've basically helped one provide value because you've helped that person name, a feeling that they're having, they've made it real, and then you can address that much earlier. And so I do like how you've hit at various levels of like this sort of psychological needs, and then also very early on to help with feedback loops, and then helping really naming What's wrong, or what's going well that you can lean into. I think that's really good stuff.

Tiffany Lenz: 29:54

It's taken some time to get there drawing on years of experience and psychology background and A number of things. But I it really came from doing months and months of research at my former firm, looking at data from customer surveys, which are good things, customer surveys are great. This is a different tool. So let's not conflate the two, just reading between the lines and saying, I'm going to just ignore the score here and read the comments. What did people actually say? And there were themes and sentiments and emotions coming out in there that that just kept bubbling to the top. So the the questions did come from good places of happy people that could have been happier and sometimes unhappy people who needed to get happy and all very controllable things.

Robert Greiner: 30:40

Do you find that the sheer act of asking the question to begin with helps grow trust with your customers?

Tiffany Lenz: 30:47

Yes, yes, I tried to do it myself, I find that if I start early, like you said, and I structure that as like an ongoing conversation, like I want to keep checking in on this thing, you really are treating your customer like just just a human like a friend you're trying to make and that that builds the solid foundation that you'll need for when some of those answers are really bad, or when things do go south. But if there is a bit of a contentious situation, which this has happened to me as well, you can bring someone in as a neutral party, to facilitate this whole dialogue and really create a safe space. That then obviously, there has to be some commitment out of that to follow up on action items that are identified. But yeah, if you start early, there's a that is a way to really get to the heart of building a relationship.

Robert Greiner: 31:38

I think it's also that whole threat of ownership is important as well, because a lot of products and services while we aim to if we think back to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, in that psychological needs section, so esteem, prestige, status, or just belongingness, like right relationships, friends, those kind of things. If you fail, if you do something out of line, if your product fails, if your service fails, you can shove people right back down into the basic needs into safety, right? If you're trying to make an emergency call on your iPhone, and it's not working, right? Or, like you said, do we make your boss look good? A lot of times, especially in b2b transactions, you're you have to justify the dollars you're spending if it doesn't go well, your ability to keep your job could be at risk. It is very important to know that you may start off in that sort of psychological needs section, approaching self fulfillment, and then something goes wrong and you're a tear down. And so addressing it as such would would be a really good place to start. And that starts with ownership and a plan to resolve.

Tiffany Lenz: 32:46

Yep, I like it.

Robert Greiner: 32:48

Okay, great. Anything else on envy?

Tiffany Lenz: 32:51

be customer obsessed that this just be obsessed?

Robert Greiner: 32:55

Great. And I really liked your questions. We'll put those in the show notes. Those and you can make them your own. And then I think we said we have one more left in seven deadly sins. Great.

Tiffany Lenz: 33:04

Oh, yes. And you do not want to miss it because it is a yucky one. pride,

Robert Greiner: 33:09

pride, pride. We're going to end strong. Yes, we haven't offended you by now. We will offend you in one week. That's great. Cool. This has been a really fun series. Thanks for digging deep on it. I like that we got to go into some details off of an initial sort of presentation and hopefully make things a little bit more practical and useful outside the scope of a single discussion.

Tiffany Lenz: 33:31

Yeah, this has been great. It's, I enjoy giving this talk. I enjoy the laughs that come with it. And the examples. I like sparring on it with you too, because you have so many of your own examples. But I never walk away from this without a fresh reminder for myself. There's a there's almost always a kind of a yuck moment. Like, Oh, look Tiffany. Yeah, you need to rethink that thing that you did yesterday. This is one that just keeps it's just the gift that keeps on giving. With the seven deadly leadership sins.

Robert Greiner: 34:00

We made it just as the conversation is just as much for us as it is for anybody. I do remember thinking after our last recording that I wish I had known this 10 years ago would have been very helpful.

Tiffany Lenz: 34:10

But you know it now.

Robert Greiner: 34:11

That's right. That's important. All right. Great. So yeah, anything else before we wrap up? I know we coming out on time.

Tiffany Lenz: 34:18

No, this was a good one.

Robert Greiner: 34:20

Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thank you, and I'll talk to you next week.

Tiffany Lenz: 34:23

Thanks.

Robert Greiner: 34:23

All right. Take care.